Curse

Unchain · Mar 29, 2006, 03:29 PM // 15:29

After reading Lord Shar's post I tried this out with 3 weapon sets up.

Fiery Flame Spitter of Enchanting (20% longer) & Villnar's Glove
Truncheon (20% Recharge) & Villnar's Glove
15/-1 Truncheon & +27/-1 Grim Cesta

Wow. The flame spitter really works well. I usually use it on my 55 monk but this works ver, very nicely. Lengthens SV quite a bit, making up for a lower score in Illusion, which I'm running at 8. I also opt to use AtB for the higher SS and Desecrate Enchantments damage, and the Flame Spitter extends this quite a bit as well. I still cover SS, but this is really nice. The 10% skill recharge on the Flame Spitter isn't quite as nice as the 20% for curses on my standard truncheon, but this way I can sometimes get a nice recharge on Power Drain or SV.

gubaga · Mar 29, 2006, 06:34 PM // 18:34

Exist better build sry

sno · Mar 29, 2006, 06:49 PM // 18:49

I hadn't thought about using a 20% enchanting weapon for SV, but that's a good idea, that I'll probably start using. I still like using suffering to cover, since it leaves more room for error, even though I almost never need it. As for running 10 blood just to meet the req for your wand I think that's totally silly. I use an earth wand as my +15/-1 (also has 20% curses fast cast) so I clearly don't meet the requirement for it. Theres really no reason to meet the req on your wand, because you should never be wanding anything anyways. The only thing you'd need that for would be nightmares, which the monk should be taking care of. For nightmares if anything I'll use power drain (to stop rend) but the actual killing is the job of the monk, always.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gubaga

Exist better build sry

Please don't post useless comments, if you have something to add by all means go ahead, but don't clutter the thread with useless posts.

lord_shar · Mar 29, 2006, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by sno

I hadn't thought about using a 20% enchanting weapon for SV, but that's a good idea, that I'll probably start using. I still like using suffering to cover, since it leaves more room for error, even though I almost never need it. As for running 10 blood just to meet the req for your wand I think that's totally silly. I use an earth wand as my +15/-1 (also has 20% curses fast cast) so I clearly don't meet the requirement for it. Theres really no reason to meet the req on your wand, because you should never be wanding anything anyways. The only thing you'd need that for would be nightmares, which the monk should be taking care of. For nightmares if anything I'll use power drain (to stop rend) but the actual killing is the job of the monk, always.

My nec usually assists with clearing nightmares... gives the monk a better chance when multiple nightmares pop (especially if he's a PUG novice).

So long as I stay behind the monk and hit from a distance, agro doesn't seem to be a problem.

EDIT: I wasn't aware of Flame Spitter's better stats... got myself 3

sno · Mar 29, 2006, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

My nec usually assists with clearing nightmares... gives the monk a better chance when multiple nightmares pop (especially if he's a PUG novice).

So long as I stay behind the monk and hit from a distance, agro doesn't seem to be a problem.

Perhaps some necros do, because I suppose some monks need that kind of assistance. When I'm monking in the UW however, I prefer the necro to stay more than an aggro away until I and all of my aggro have stopped moving. This prevents any aggro from shifting to the necro, keeping him safe. It's absolutely annoying when a necro gets himself killed because he thought I needed help when I don't.

Btw, I just tried your method for smites (atb instead of suffering) and it works quite well. With 18 seconds of SV (15 with 9 illusion + 3 from the 20% enchanting FFS) They have SV on them till they die, as long as I time it right, and with AtB I'm doing more damage, and thus killing faster.

I still like suffering for small groups as a bait hex, and it's nice to have in case something happens and I cast late, and want to ensure the hexes are covered.

lord_shar · Mar 29, 2006, 11:57 PM // 23:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by sno

...<SNIP>...
Btw, I just tried your method for smites (atb instead of suffering) and it works quite well. With 18 seconds of SV (15 with 9 illusion + 3 from the 20% enchanting FFS) They have SV on them till they die, as long as I time it right, and with AtB I'm doing more damage, and thus killing faster.

Glad to hear it's working well.

The most reliable timer I've found is the SV-recharge clock. It's a 30-second timer, so when it hits 3-o'clock, that's the 7.5 second mark (the point where ~3 smites are usually emptied by SV). For bigger pulls, I can commence SS at SV's 2-o'clock recharge mark since smite energy get energy drained much sooner.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sno

I still like suffering for small groups as a bait hex, and it's nice to have in case something happens and I cast late, and want to ensure the hexes are covered.

I'm doing the same with Parasitic Bond for 1-2 smites. 3 or more smites get treated with the usual casting pattern above.

Sha Noran · Mar 30, 2006, 09:12 AM // 09:12

My points, once again. Keep in mind this is not a flame, but rather, a restating of my points regarding the topic; they were deleted with most everything else. :-)

1) Cover hexes are not needed. SV-->AE-->SS-->SS, GG. Throw in desecrate if you even have time to before they're all dead.

2) -1 Energy regen items are not needed. Using these will simply slow down the process as a whole.

3) Calling BR noob is simply silly. If you're goal is efficiancy, there is nothing wrong with bringing it, whether the monk NEEDS is or not is irrelevant... especially since you have plenty of room on your bar without silly cover hexes.

Dispute this as you will. Our guild is preparing videos to prove our points.

olydog · Mar 30, 2006, 10:08 AM // 10:08

I want to ask your guys opinions on using the old 20/20 rockmolder with either a FFS with a 20% enchants or the collectors 20% chance of faster recharge? I feel this is a much better offhand then Vilnars. I've been using all kinds of weapons and offhands setups and I have been echoing SV..but am seeing the better option of just making SV last longer..say 17-18 seconds and just echoing SS.

lord_shar · Mar 30, 2006, 11:00 AM // 11:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

My points, once again. Keep in mind this is not a flame, but rather, a restating of my points regarding the topic; they were deleted with most everything else. :-)

1) Cover hexes are not needed. SV-->AE-->SS-->SS, GG. Throw in desecrate if you even have time to before they're all dead.

I agree. Ever since I found a solution to extending SV to 18 seconds via 20% enchant mod one-hander, cover-hexes have not been needed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

2) -1 Energy regen items are not needed. Using these will simply slow down the process as a whole.

I disagree here. When I see 5+ aatxe and want to SS all of them, arcane echo'd SS will frequently expire since no energy is available after the 3rd SS-cast. By switching to +27/-1's and +15/-1's, I gain a quick +30 energy to unload two more SS's to hex everything. When the mobs drop, my necro's energy is instantly recharged.

Emergency energy gear is a life-saver, though the "borrowed" energy comes with some interrest when you swich back to your default gear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

3) Calling BR noob is simply silly. If you're goal is efficiancy, there is nothing wrong with bringing it, whether the monk NEEDS is or not is irrelevant... especially since you have plenty of room on your bar without silly cover hexes.

Dispute this as you will. Our guild is preparing videos to prove our points.

BR lets the monk recover quickly after coldfire fights or ressurection sig's. It does increase the monk's margin for error should his or her energy get depleted somehow. None of the monks I group with (PUG or otherwise) ever complain about receiving BR's.

The only cover/bait hex I bring is Parasitic Bond. It allows for quick health recovery and SS-protection when dealing with coldfires or 1-2 smites (they don't hit fast enough for SV to drain them as quickly).

Quote:

Originally Posted by olydog

I want to ask your guys opinions on using the old 20/20 rockmolder with either a FFS with a 20% enchants or the collectors 20% chance of faster recharge? I feel this is a much better offhand then Vilnars. I've been using all kinds of weapons and offhands setups and I have been echoing SV..but am seeing the better option of just making SV last longer..say 17-18 seconds and just echoing SS.

Vilnar's also boosts damage during 20% of SS-casts in addition to speeding up its recharge. Also, regardless of how fast the necro casts, he/she eventually runs out of energy. By using Vilnar's Glove instead of Rockmolder, the necro optimizes hex damage instead of just speeding up energy usage for all spells.

Rhuobhe · Mar 30, 2006, 12:53 PM // 12:53

Still one thing I'm curious about that I posted earlier but have not seen a response to.

If you wait for Arcane Echo to recharge between smite groups, then wouldnt you want it to recharge as fast as possible?

Echoing SS is certainly faster killing, no doubt about it, but echoing SV would lead to faster AE recharge, which would mean you're ready for the next group of smites faster.

cerb · Mar 30, 2006, 01:32 PM // 13:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhuobhe

Still one thing I'm curious about that I posted earlier but have not seen a response to.

If you wait for Arcane Echo to recharge between smite groups, then wouldnt you want it to recharge as fast as possible?

Echoing SS is certainly faster killing, no doubt about it, but echoing SV would lead to faster AE recharge, which would mean you're ready for the next group of smites faster.

Sno answered this previously.

What happens is echo sv is much slower, therefore gives time to AE to recharge, unlike echo ss. However, with a good monk, the time he takes to aggro groups (usually 2-3), well it gives echo time to recharge.

No matter what, the monk should never be waiting for the necro.

@lord_shar: Good job on the clever idea (20% enchant)

Bu7ch · Mar 30, 2006, 03:37 PM // 15:37

This has been a great source of information for my previously seldom used necro...if any monks want to help an inexperienced necro down there you can pm me in game - Mrs Flanders (my necro) or Butch Daddy (my usual char)

sno · Mar 30, 2006, 05:42 PM // 17:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

1) Cover hexes are not needed. SV-->AE-->SS-->SS, GG. Throw in desecrate if you even have time to before they're all dead.

Depending on how long your SV lasts, cover hexes may be needed. If you run with a 14 second SV and don't use a 20% enchanting weapon, the smites may have a bit of energy just before they die, giving them the opportunity to smite hex.

Quote:

2) -1 Energy regen items are not needed. Using these will simply slow down the process as a whole.

I'd like to point out for the other necros that you don't even have one. These things you bring up only apply to you because you use a me/n. This means that you a: run a 20 second SV and b: don't have soul reaping. If you had soul reaping then you'd easily understand how having a -regen weapon set is priceless, as you can cast more spells to more quickly kill, and still end up with a full energy bar after they die.

Quote:

3) Calling BR noob is simply silly. If you're goal is efficiancy, there is nothing wrong with bringing it, whether the monk NEEDS is or not is irrelevant... especially since you have plenty of room on your bar without silly cover hexes.

The reason I don't like BR, is that there are better skills to bring in order to speed up runs. Bringing an aoe bait hex like suffering speeds up kills, and bringing other skills such as power drain also speed up the run, as stated before, since stray nightmares won't slow the monk down. Not only that, but bringing BR forces you to bring at least some blood, otherwise it's not doing enough good to be worth it. Not only that, but keep in mind that br is a TOUCH spell. A good UW team should be constantly advancing, never having to wait for recharge, or stop to enjoy the scenery. Theres no reason that the necro should be close enough to the monk to be able to BR him, except at the very beginning, where it's not needed anyways (after a blessed sig, the monk has enough energy to start, without waiting at all.)

Quote:

I want to ask your guys opinions on using the old 20/20 rockmolder with either a FFS with a 20% enchants or the collectors 20% chance of faster recharge? I feel this is a much better offhand then Vilnars. I've been using all kinds of weapons and offhands setups and I have been echoing SV..but am seeing the better option of just making SV last longer..say 17-18 seconds and just echoing SS.

I don't like the rockmolder since it gives SV a chance to recharge quicker, which would mess up your SS timing. Also the enhanced damage with villnars makes it a better choice anyways.

Sha Noran · Mar 30, 2006, 11:07 PM // 23:07

Nope, I don't have a Necro. I do, however, play with quite of few of the best around, and they run it the way I'm talking about.

1) A good Necro has an SV that will last ~15 seconds, which is MORE than enough time to kill the smites.

2) Bait hexes do not speed up the kills, they slow them down. Casting anything but the core skills is simply not needed.

3) Ok, instead of BR I'll just bring an empty slot. I'll get more use out of that than a cover hex.

Rhuobhe · Mar 30, 2006, 11:57 PM // 23:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by cerb

Sno answered this previously.

What happens is echo sv is much slower, therefore gives time to AE to recharge, unlike echo ss. However, with a good monk, the time he takes to aggro groups (usually 2-3), well it gives echo time to recharge.

No matter what, the monk should never be waiting for the necro.

@lord_shar: Good job on the clever idea (20% enchant)

So you would agree that with a crappy monk who refuses to agro more than 1 group at a time, it is better to echo SV? Sounds like what you're saying.

In any event, it's not always possible for a monk to agro several groups. So the optimal Necro would echo SV at least 1 time while in the UW. The non-optimal one would say "Echo SS always" or "Echo SV always".

Strictly speaking, of course

Quote:

Originally Posted by sno

I don't like the rockmolder since it gives SV a chance to recharge quicker, which would mess up your SS timing. Also the enhanced damage with villnars makes it a better choice anyways.

Then I suspect you wouldn't use a FFS for the 20% enchant, right?

sno · Mar 31, 2006, 12:27 AM // 00:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhuobhe

So you would agree that with a crappy monk who refuses to agro more than 1 group at a time, it is better to echo SV? Sounds like what you're saying.

In any event, it's not always possible for a monk to agro several groups. So the optimal Necro would echo SV at least 1 time while in the UW. The non-optimal one would say "Echo SS always" or "Echo SV always".

Strictly speaking, of course

Even with single groups it's better to echo SS than to echo SV, no matter what. If your monk is bad and takes small groups every time, then the run will be slower because of him, not you.

Quote:

Then I suspect you wouldn't use a FFS for the 20% enchant, right?

Actually I do

Having a longer SV is nice no matter what, and doesn't effect the recharge (which is what I use to time SS.)

Quote:

2) Bait hexes do not speed up the kills, they slow them down. Casting anything but the core skills is simply not needed.

How can you say this? It's 100% proven that when fighting 1-2 smites, baiting out Smite Hex before SS is MUCH quicker than any other method. Using Suffering>echo>ss>ss>desecrate, you can kill small groups without ever using SV at all, and thus no waiting. Not to mention that SV won't work well enough with only 1 or 2 smites to actually be effective.

How would you recommend killing them, if not via a bait hex?

Sha Noran · Mar 31, 2006, 12:33 AM // 00:33

Why you would ever have only 1 or 2 smites is beyond me. Even if the fighting smite group that agros on whatever it wants slims down a group to that number there should still be another group near enough to agro that raises the number to 5+.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sno

Even with single groups it's better to echo SS than to echo SV, no matter what. If your monk is bad and takes small groups every time, then the run will be slower because of him, not you.

:-)

Rhuobhe · Mar 31, 2006, 12:50 AM // 00:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by sno

I don't like the rockmolder since it gives SV a chance to recharge quicker, which would mess up your SS timing. Also the enhanced damage with villnars makes it a better choice anyways.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sno

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhuobhe

Then I suspect you wouldn't use a FFS for the 20% enchant, right?

Actually I do

Having a longer SV is nice no matter what, and doesn't effect the recharge (which is what I use to time SS.)

Isn't that a contradiction? 10% of the time your timing would have a chance to mess up. Ok, point #2 where Vilnars > Rockmolder for other reasons does hold a lot of weight for choosing Vilnars. But the statement you made indicates that you didn't want recharge bonus for SV, which the FFS gives you.

I'm not sure if you were claiming that FFS doesn't have a 10% chance to speed up SV recharge or not, but if that is your claim then it is simply not true

sno · Mar 31, 2006, 01:03 AM // 01:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhuobhe

Isn't that a contradiction? 10% of the time your timing would have a chance to mess up. Ok, point #2 where Vilnars > Rockmolder for other reasons does hold a lot of weight for choosing Vilnars. But the statement you made indicates that you didn't want recharge bonus for SV, which the FFS gives you.

I'm not sure if you were claiming that FFS doesn't have a 10% chance to speed up SV recharge or not, but if that is your claim then it is simply not true

You know what, I totally forgot about the 10% recharge on FFS... That's a very valid point.

Quote:

Why you would ever have only 1 or 2 smites is beyond me. Even if the fighting smite group that agros on whatever it wants slims down a group to that number there should still be another group near enough to agro that raises the number to 5+.

There are several reasons that this may happen. What if you have a group of smites, and just before they die the monk gets killed, leaving only 2 of them alive? You'll res the monk, and then have to kill 2 smites by themselves. What if the monk doesn't aggro them right, and 1-2 of them get stuck on the other side of him, and don't get hit with either SS? Then theres 1-2 smites with full hp that you have to deal with. Just because these situations don't happen often doesn't mean you shouldn't be prepared to handle them if and when they do arise.

Sha Noran · Mar 31, 2006, 01:19 AM // 01:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by sno

If your monk is bad...then the run will be slower because of him, not you.

All your arguments are regarding the Monk and problems with him, not the Necro.